CoSADIE DC Form SOC Telecon 1
Agenda(feel free to add more)Program Outline (thanks to Mark Allen)June 109h-10h Registration/Coffee10h - 12noon Introduction Session- Who is who? (Everyone introduces themselves) - Virtual Observatory as an Astronomy Infrastructure (EuroVO and IVOA status) - VO as a tool for Science (Science Examples - simple and advanced) - Snapshot of European Data Centres (Summary of the census results)12 - 14h Lunch14h - 15h30 Data Centre Presentations~6 x15 min presentations from Data Centres15h30 - 16h Coffee break16h - 17h30 Information and Publishing tools for Data Centres(presentations, but enough time for questions) - Talk on Different approaches to publishing and standards - big/small/archives/projects - Talk on GAVO publishing? - Talk on SAADA? - ???June 119h - 10h30 Panel discussion- requirements/feedback from large organizations [ ~4 panelists from ESO, LOFAR, ESA, ?]10h30 - 11h Coffee11h - 12h30 Panel discussion- requirements/feedback from medium sized organizations and projects [ ~4 panelists from ???]12h30 - 14h Lunch14h - 15h30 Concluding discussionSpeakers- offered contribution from Catherine Boisson (Convener of the Science User Group work package of Cherenkov Telescop Array (CTA)), discussion on standards for high energy data in the VO - ideas/contributions from the SOC?Getting the word outStatus5 registrations (all from within CoSADIE , see http://g-vo.org/reg_dcforum)done
to do
Telecon Minutes: Present:
Mark Allen
Christophe Arviset
Markus Demleitner
Mark Holliman (for Keith Noddle)
Marco Molinaro
Gabriel Stöckle
(1) Introduction / Action Items (collected by Markus)We are planning with 40 participants, which would be a success.
Everyone:
UHEI:
TBD:
(2) Program OutlineWe're working on a proposal written by Mark Allen (thanks!)
(a) Monday 9-10 Registration/CoffeeSome discussion to shorten this to end at 9:30 -- the additinal 30 Minutes might allow people to travel on Monday morning, though, so we keep the hour for now.
(b) Monday 10-12 Introduction SessionA Who's Who could help to set the atmosphere of a discussion meeting depending on the number of participants. Then, talks on: * VO Infrastructure (Francoise has signalled she'd do it) * VO as a tool (Mark Allen is the natural candidate and has agreed to speak) * Snapshot of the DC Forum (Either Gabriel or Markus)
(c) Monday 12-13:30 LunchSince we'll have lunch in-house, 60-90 minutes should suffice here. If necessary, we can thus start the DC presentations at 13:30
(d) Monday 13:30-15:30 Data Center PresentationsWe should encourage speakers to talk about more about what they (want to) publish and what's tricky about it and less about their fancy, shining project/instruments/whatever -- that's happened at previous community workshops and turned out to be not terribly useful.
(e) Monday 16-17:30 Publishing ToolsThankfully, there's not much pressure to talk about individual packages here. We're not quite sure what would be useful to encourage participants to become more active in the VO. Markus suggests talks about
Mark Allen suggests at least one talk about the different approaches to publishing to the VO (PAAS, using packages, using libraries, roll-your-own).
We agree to write brief mock-abstracts and see how we can join them.
(f) Tuesday morning, Panel discussionsThere is some discussion whether we actually want two panels (unless we really run into time constraints, we do), and whether we should separate according to some criterion other than "large/small". However, if only for reasons of acknowledging them, we shouldn't mix the large establishments with people "justing wanting to publish their data".
Christophe: Good moderation is needed to come to some valuable result. Focus is "What do you want to publish, what are the problems?"
Markus suggests to have 3 panelists from larger projects that we know and one panelist from a small/medium project, which we're going to try and identify
from the DC census.
We should probably identify some "guiding questions" for the panels.
One might be: What kind of help would you like to get from the VO: VO people visiting you for a week or two? Should we rather write layers on top of your proprietary services? Or just fund a person from your project? [Frankly, I can guess what they'll answer given that choice -- Markus] Chair of the panels can be Francoise and Andy Lowhan(?)
(g) 14-15:30 Concluding DiscussionNot controversial.
(3) Getting the word outSo far, only four people actually have registred [not even the SOC! Come on, don't make us look bad and go http://g-vo.org/reg_dcforum now -- Markus]. UHEI so far has sent out an invitation to the participants of the DC census, alongside with the request to update the data, so it's not been very conspicuous. We'll send out another mail soon-ish, focused on the DC forum more explicitely. The invitation has also been circulated on the EuroVO mailing list. In the end, we'll have to ask folks individually. So, if you know people who might be interested to come (and, equally important, talk), please talk to them.
(4) Next TeleconThere's going to be another availability survey when we next need one, probably some time in April. | ||||||||
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Meeting MinutesThese are the minutes of an SOC meeting during the Heidelberg Interop.Program UpdatesSo, we have 10 Contributions (possibly minus Catherine Boisson, to whom Marco will try to re-establish contact). This works out 12 Minutes/Contribution, which we consider is not enough. Markus suggests to strike Panel Discussion II and have two DC Input sessions. Inputs I would stay where they are, Inputs II would be the first session on Tuesday, with the Panel Discussion the last core program point.Target Group MismatchesMost (all but 1 or 2) people currently registred for the DC Forum are at the Interop. That would indicate that we so far failed to attract the non-VO clientele. Mark will write a draft mail for Francoise to send around to the CoSADIE board ("please invite people"). UHEI will look into the DC Census again looking for potentially interested parties again and send personalized mails again. Some further names were in the air, and whoever aired them will try to establish contact.PanelistsWho's going to be on the Panel? One of the ESO persons would be good (Mark will ask), Jerome Berthier if we can get him (Gabriel will ask), Laurent Michel (Mark)? Pierre LeSidaner? Mark and Markus would stand in if there's a vacant seat.Questions for PanelistsThink about them, collect them via mail (Gabriel will remind us as necessary). | |||||||
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Agenda(feel free to add more)Program Outline (thanks to Mark Allen)June 109h-10h Registration/Coffee10h - 12noon Introduction Session- Who is who? (Everyone introduces themselves) - Virtual Observatory as an Astronomy Infrastructure (EuroVO and IVOA status) - VO as a tool for Science (Science Examples - simple and advanced) - Snapshot of European Data Centres (Summary of the census results)12 - 14h Lunch14h - 15h30 Data Centre Presentations~6 x15 min presentations from Data Centres15h30 - 16h Coffee break16h - 17h30 Information and Publishing tools for Data Centres(presentations, but enough time for questions) - Talk on Different approaches to publishing and standards - big/small/archives/projects - Talk on GAVO publishing? - Talk on SAADA? - ???June 119h - 10h30 Panel discussion- requirements/feedback from large organizations [ ~4 panelists from ESO, LOFAR, ESA, ?]10h30 - 11h Coffee11h - 12h30 Panel discussion- requirements/feedback from medium sized organizations and projects [ ~4 panelists from ???]12h30 - 14h Lunch14h - 15h30 Concluding discussionSpeakers- offered contribution from Catherine Boisson (Convener of the Science User Group work package of Cherenkov Telescop Array (CTA)), discussion on standards for high energy data in the VO - ideas/contributions from the SOC?Getting the word outStatus5 registrations (all from within CoSADIE , see http://g-vo.org/reg_dcforum)done
to do
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Present:
Mark Allen
Christophe Arviset
Markus Demleitner
Mark Holliman (for Keith Noddle)
Marco Molinaro
Gabriel Stöckle
(1) Introduction / Action Items (collected by Markus)We are planning with 40 participants, which would be a success.
Everyone:
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> > | ||||||||
UHEI:
TBD:
(2) Program OutlineWe're working on a proposal written by Mark Allen (thanks!)
(a) Monday 9-10 Registration/CoffeeSome discussion to shorten this to end at 9:30 -- the additinal 30 Minutes might allow people to travel on Monday morning, though, so we keep the hour for now.
(b) Monday 10-12 Introduction SessionA Who's Who could help to set the atmosphere of a discussion meeting depending on the number of participants. Then, talks on: * VO Infrastructure (Francoise has signalled she'd do it) * VO as a tool (Mark Allen is the natural candidate and has agreed to speak) * Snapshot of the DC Forum (Either Gabriel or Markus)
(c) Monday 12-13:30 LunchSince we'll have lunch in-house, 60-90 minutes should suffice here. If necessary, we can thus start the DC presentations at 13:30
(d) Monday 13:30-15:30 Data Center PresentationsWe should encourage speakers to talk about more about what they (want to) publish and what's tricky about it and less about their fancy, shining project/instruments/whatever -- that's happened at previous community workshops and turned out to be not terribly useful.
(e) Monday 16-17:30 Publishing ToolsThankfully, there's not much pressure to talk about individual packages here. We're not quite sure what would be useful to encourage participants to become more active in the VO. Markus suggests talks about
Mark Allen suggests at least one talk about the different approaches to publishing to the VO (PAAS, using packages, using libraries, roll-your-own).
We agree to write brief mock-abstracts and see how we can join them.
(f) Tuesday morning, Panel discussionsThere is some discussion whether we actually want two panels (unless we really run into time constraints, we do), and whether we should separate according to some criterion other than "large/small". However, if only for reasons of acknowledging them, we shouldn't mix the large establishments with people "justing wanting to publish their data".
Christophe: Good moderation is needed to come to some valuable result. Focus is "What do you want to publish, what are the problems?"
Markus suggests to have 3 panelists from larger projects that we know and one panelist from a small/medium project, which we're going to try and identify
from the DC census.
We should probably identify some "guiding questions" for the panels.
One might be: What kind of help would you like to get from the VO: VO people visiting you for a week or two? Should we rather write layers on top of your proprietary services? Or just fund a person from your project? [Frankly, I can guess what they'll answer given that choice -- Markus] Chair of the panels can be Francoise and Andy Lowhan(?)
(g) 14-15:30 Concluding DiscussionNot controversial.
(3) Getting the word outSo far, only four people actually have registred [not even the SOC! Come on, don't make us look bad and go http://g-vo.org/reg_dcforum now -- Markus]. UHEI so far has sent out an invitation to the participants of the DC census, alongside with the request to update the data, so it's not been very conspicuous. We'll send out another mail soon-ish, focused on the DC forum more explicitely. The invitation has also been circulated on the EuroVO mailing list. In the end, we'll have to ask folks individually. So, if you know people who might be interested to come (and, equally important, talk), please talk to them.
(4) Next TeleconThere's going to be another availability survey when we next need one, probably some time in April.
<-- Set ALLOWTOPICCHANGE = CoSADIEMembersGroup --> |
CoSADIE DC Form SOC Telecon 1
Agenda(feel free to add more)Program Outline (thanks to Mark Allen)June 109h-10h Registration/Coffee10h - 12noon Introduction Session- Who is who? (Everyone introduces themselves) - Virtual Observatory as an Astronomy Infrastructure (EuroVO and IVOA status) - VO as a tool for Science (Science Examples - simple and advanced) - Snapshot of European Data Centres (Summary of the census results)12 - 14h Lunch14h - 15h30 Data Centre Presentations~6 x15 min presentations from Data Centres15h30 - 16h Coffee break16h - 17h30 Information and Publishing tools for Data Centres(presentations, but enough time for questions) - Talk on Different approaches to publishing and standards - big/small/archives/projects - Talk on GAVO publishing? - Talk on SAADA? - ???June 119h - 10h30 Panel discussion- requirements/feedback from large organizations [ ~4 panelists from ESO, LOFAR, ESA, ?]10h30 - 11h Coffee11h - 12h30 Panel discussion- requirements/feedback from medium sized organizations and projects [ ~4 panelists from ???]12h30 - 14h Lunch14h - 15h30 Concluding discussionSpeakers- offered contribution from Catherine Boisson (Convener of the Science User Group work package of Cherenkov Telescop Array (CTA)), discussion on standards for high energy data in the VO - ideas/contributions from the SOC?Getting the word outStatus5 registrations (all from within CoSADIE , see http://g-vo.org/reg_dcforum)done
to do
Telecon Protocol: Present:
Mark Allen
Christophe Arviset
Markus Demleitner
Mark Holliman (for Keith Noddle)
Marco Molinaro
Gabriel Stöckle | ||||||||
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< < | (0) Introduction:We are planning with 40 participants, which would be a success. Everybody shall make comments, not just listen
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> > | (1) Introduction / Action Items (collected by Markus)We are planning with 40 participants, which would be a success. | |||||||
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> > | Everyone:
UHEI:
TBD:
(2) Program Outline | |||||||
We're working on a proposal written by Mark Allen (thanks!)
(a) Monday 9-10 Registration/CoffeeSome discussion to shorten this to end at 9:30 -- the additinal 30 Minutes might allow people to travel on Monday morning, though, so we keep the hour for now.
(b) Monday 10-12 Introduction SessionA Who's Who could help to set the atmosphere of a discussion meeting depending on the number of participants. Then, talks on: * VO Infrastructure (Francoise has signalled she'd do it) * VO as a tool (Mark Allen is the natural candidate and has agreed to speak) * Snapshot of the DC Forum (Either Gabriel or Markus)
(c) Monday 12-13:30 LunchSince we'll have lunch in-house, 60-90 minutes should suffice here. If necessary, we can thus start the DC presentations at 13:30
(d) Monday 13:30-15:30 Data Center PresentationsWe should encourage speakers to talk about more about what they (want to) publish and what's tricky about it and less about their fancy, shining project/instruments/whatever -- that's happened at previous community workshops and turned out to be not terribly useful.
(e) Monday 16-17:30 Publishing ToolsThankfully, there's not much pressure to talk about individual packages here. We're not quite sure what would be useful to encourage participants to become more active in the VO. Markus suggests talks about
Mark Allen suggests at least one talk about the different approaches to publishing to the VO (PAAS, using packages, using libraries, roll-your-own).
We agree to write brief mock-abstracts and see how we can join them.
(f) Tuesday morning, Panel discussionsThere is some discussion whether we actually want two panels (unless we really run into time constraints, we do), and whether we should separate according to some criterion other than "large/small". However, if only for reasons of acknowledging them, we shouldn't mix the large establishments with people "justing wanting to publish their data".
Christophe: Good moderation is needed to come to some valuable result. Focus is "What do you want to publish, what are the problems?"
Markus suggests to have 3 panelists from larger projects that we know and one panelist from a small/medium project, which we're going to try and identify
from the DC census.
We should probably identify some "guiding questions" for the panels.
One might be: What kind of help would you like to get from the VO: VO people visiting you for a week or two? Should we rather write layers on top of your proprietary services? Or just fund a person from your project? [Frankly, I can guess what they'll answer given that choice -- Markus] Chair of the panels can be Francoise and Andy Lowhan(?)
(g) 14-15:30 Concluding DiscussionNot controversial. | ||||||||
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> > | (3) Getting the word out | |||||||
So far, only four people actually have registred [not even the SOC! Come on, don't make us look bad and go http://g-vo.org/reg_dcforum now -- Markus]. UHEI so far has sent out an invitation to the participants of the DC census, alongside with the request to update the data, so it's not been very conspicuous. We'll send out another mail soon-ish, focused on the DC forum more explicitely. The invitation has also been circulated on the EuroVO mailing list. In the end, we'll have to ask folks individually. So, if you know people who might be interested to come (and, equally important, talk), please talk to them. | ||||||||
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< < | (3) Action items (collected by Markus)Everyone: * Think hard how to best make use of the Tools session on Monday afternoon, possibly writing mock abstracts for talks you think should be given there * Talk to interested parties and invite them in person UHEI: * Send out another round of nice invitations to the DC census participants * Identify candidates for the Small/Medium DC Panel discussion from the DC census data [BUT: if you know someone that's a good speaker and might fit the bill, please do tell us] TBD: * Actually fix the speakers for the Big DC Panel | |||||||
(4) Next TeleconThere's going to be another availability survey when we next need one, probably some time in April.
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CoSADIE DC Form SOC Telecon 1
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Agenda(feel free to add more)Program Outline (thanks to Mark Allen)June 109h-10h Registration/Coffee10h - 12noon Introduction Session- Who is who? (Everyone introduces themselves) - Virtual Observatory as an Astronomy Infrastructure (EuroVO and IVOA status) - VO as a tool for Science (Science Examples - simple and advanced) - Snapshot of European Data Centres (Summary of the census results)12 - 14h Lunch14h - 15h30 Data Centre Presentations~6 x15 min presentations from Data Centres15h30 - 16h Coffee break16h - 17h30 Information and Publishing tools for Data Centres(presentations, but enough time for questions) - Talk on Different approaches to publishing and standards - big/small/archives/projects - Talk on GAVO publishing? - Talk on SAADA? - ???June 119h - 10h30 Panel discussion- requirements/feedback from large organizations [ ~4 panelists from ESO, LOFAR, ESA, ?]10h30 - 11h Coffee11h - 12h30 Panel discussion- requirements/feedback from medium sized organizations and projects [ ~4 panelists from ???]12h30 - 14h Lunch14h - 15h30 Concluding discussionSpeakers- offered contribution from Catherine Boisson (Convener of the Science User Group work package of Cherenkov Telescop Array (CTA)), discussion on standards for high energy data in the VO - ideas/contributions from the SOC?Getting the word outStatus5 registrations (all from within CoSADIE , see http://g-vo.org/reg_dcforum)done
to do
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Telecon Protocol: Present:
Mark Allen
Christophe Arviset
Markus Demleitner
Mark Holliman (for Keith Noddle)
Marco Molinaro
Gabriel Stöckle
(0) Introduction:We are planning with 40 participants, which would be a success. Everybody shall make comments, not just listen
(1) Program OutlineWe're working on a proposal written by Mark Allen (thanks!)
(a) Monday 9-10 Registration/CoffeeSome discussion to shorten this to end at 9:30 -- the additinal 30 Minutes might allow people to travel on Monday morning, though, so we keep the hour for now.
(b) Monday 10-12 Introduction SessionA Who's Who could help to set the atmosphere of a discussion meeting depending on the number of participants. Then, talks on: * VO Infrastructure (Francoise has signalled she'd do it) * VO as a tool (Mark Allen is the natural candidate and has agreed to speak) * Snapshot of the DC Forum (Either Gabriel or Markus)
(c) Monday 12-13:30 LunchSince we'll have lunch in-house, 60-90 minutes should suffice here. If necessary, we can thus start the DC presentations at 13:30
(d) Monday 13:30-15:30 Data Center PresentationsWe should encourage speakers to talk about more about what they (want to) publish and what's tricky about it and less about their fancy, shining project/instruments/whatever -- that's happened at previous community workshops and turned out to be not terribly useful.
(e) Monday 16-17:30 Publishing ToolsThankfully, there's not much pressure to talk about individual packages here. We're not quite sure what would be useful to encourage participants to become more active in the VO. Markus suggests talks about
Mark Allen suggests at least one talk about the different approaches to publishing to the VO (PAAS, using packages, using libraries, roll-your-own).
We agree to write brief mock-abstracts and see how we can join them.
(f) Tuesday morning, Panel discussionsThere is some discussion whether we actually want two panels (unless we really run into time constraints, we do), and whether we should separate according to some criterion other than "large/small". However, if only for reasons of acknowledging them, we shouldn't mix the large establishments with people "justing wanting to publish their data".
Christophe: Good moderation is needed to come to some valuable result. Focus is "What do you want to publish, what are the problems?"
Markus suggests to have 3 panelists from larger projects that we know and one panelist from a small/medium project, which we're going to try and identify
from the DC census.
We should probably identify some "guiding questions" for the panels.
One might be: What kind of help would you like to get from the VO: VO people visiting you for a week or two? Should we rather write layers on top of your proprietary services? Or just fund a person from your project? [Frankly, I can guess what they'll answer given that choice -- Markus] Chair of the panels can be Francoise and Andy Lowhan(?)
(g) 14-15:30 Concluding DiscussionNot controversial.
(2) Getting the word outSo far, only four people actually have registred [not even the SOC! Come on, don't make us look bad and go http://g-vo.org/reg_dcforum now -- Markus]. UHEI so far has sent out an invitation to the participants of the DC census, alongside with the request to update the data, so it's not been very conspicuous. We'll send out another mail soon-ish, focused on the DC forum more explicitely. The invitation has also been circulated on the EuroVO mailing list. In the end, we'll have to ask folks individually. So, if you know people who might be interested to come (and, equally important, talk), please talk to them.
(3) Action items (collected by Markus)Everyone: * Think hard how to best make use of the Tools session on Monday afternoon, possibly writing mock abstracts for talks you think should be given there * Talk to interested parties and invite them in person UHEI: * Send out another round of nice invitations to the DC census participants * Identify candidates for the Small/Medium DC Panel discussion from the DC census data [BUT: if you know someone that's a good speaker and might fit the bill, please do tell us] TBD: * Actually fix the speakers for the Big DC Panel
(4) Next TeleconThere's going to be another availability survey when we next need one, probably some time in April. | |||||||
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CoSADIE DC Form SOC Telecon 1
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June 109h-10h Registration/Coffee10h - 12noon Introduction Session- Who is who? (Everyone introduces themselves) - Virtual Observatory as an Astronomy Infrastructure (EuroVO and IVOA status) - VO as a tool for Science (Science Examples - simple and advanced) - Snapshot of European Data Centres (Summary of the census results)12 - 14h Lunch14h - 15h30 Data Centre Presentations~6 x15 min presentations from Data Centres15h30 - 16h Coffee break16h - 17h30 Information and Publishing tools for Data Centres(presentations, but enough time for questions) - Talk on Different approaches to publishing and standards - big/small/archives/projects - Talk on GAVO publishing? - Talk on SAADA? - ???June 119h - 10h30 Panel discussion- requirements/feedback from large organizations [ ~4 panelists from ESO, LOFAR, ESA, ?]10h30 - 11h Coffee11h - 12h30 Panel discussion- requirements/feedback from medium sized organizations and projects [ ~4 panelists from ???]12h30 - 14h Lunch14h - 15h30 Concluding discussion | ||||||||
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- offered contribution from Catherine Boisson (Convener of the Science User Group work package of Cherenkov Telescop Array (CTA)), discussion on standards for high energy data in the VO - ideas/contributions from the SOC? | ||||||||
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Status5 registrations (all from within CoSADIE , see http://g-vo.org/reg_dcforum)done
to do
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CoSADIE DC Form SOC Telecon 1
Agenda
Program Outline (thanks to Mark Allen)June 109h-10h Registration/Coffee10h - 12noon Introduction Session- Who is who? (Everyone introduces themselves) - Virtual Observatory as an Astronomy Infrastructure (EuroVO and IVOA status) - VO as a tool for Science (Science Examples - simple and advanced) - Snapshot of European Data Centres (Summary of the census results)12 - 14h Lunch14h - 15h30 Data Centre Presentations~6 x15 min presentations from Data Centres15h30 - 16h Coffee break16h - 17h30 Information and Publishing tools for Data Centres(presentations, but enough time for questions) - Talk on Different approaches to publishing and standards - big/small/archives/projects - Talk on GAVO publishing? - Talk on SAADA? - ???June 119h - 10h30 Panel discussion- requirements/feedback from large organizations [ ~4 panelists from ESO, LOFAR, ESA, ?]10h30 - 11h Coffee11h - 12h30 Panel discussion- requirements/feedback from medium sized organizations and projects [ ~4 panelists from ???]12h30 - 14h Lunch14h - 15h30 Concluding discussionSpeakers- offered contribution from Catherine Boisson (Convener of the Science User Group work package of Cherenkov Telescop Array (CTA)), discussion on standards for high energy data in the VO - ideas/contributions from the SOC?Getting the word outStatus5 registrations (all from within CoSADIE , see http://g-vo.org/reg_dcforum)done | ||||||||
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> > | 10h - 12noon Introduction Session- Who is who? (Everyone introduces themselves) - Virtual Observatory as an Astronomy Infrastructure (EuroVO and IVOA status) - VO as a tool for Science (Science Examples - simple and advanced) - Snapshot of European Data Centres (Summary of the census results)12 - 14h Lunch14h - 15h30 Data Centre Presentations~6 x15 min presentations from Data Centres15h30 - 16h Coffee break16h - 17h30 Information and Publishing tools for Data Centres(presentations, but enough time for questions) - Talk on Different approaches to publishing and standards - big/small/archives/projects - Talk on GAVO publishing? - Talk on SAADA? - ???June 119h - 10h30 Panel discussion- requirements/feedback from large organizations [ ~4 panelists from ESO, LOFAR, ESA, ?]10h30 - 11h Coffee11h - 12h30 Panel discussion- requirements/feedback from medium sized organizations and projects [ ~4 panelists from ???]12h30 - 14h Lunch14h - 15h30 Concluding discussionSpeakers- offered contribution from Catherine Boisson (Convener of the Science User Group work package of Cherenkov Telescop Array (CTA)), discussion on standards for high energy data in the VO - ideas/contributions from the SOC?Getting the word outStatus5 registrations (all from within CoSADIE , see http://g-vo.org/reg_dcforum)done
to do
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